That's Apololypse How not Genocide. I remind you that Nightmare Moon might not have been aware of the implications of removing the sun. The whole thing was a pit of jealousy.

I think the main reason that people are so harsh on Gilda and Trixie is that they learned nothing from their respective experiences. All we know is that Gilda was a jerk when she was introduced, and she was still a jerk after everything happened. It doesn't say anything about whether she's redeemable or not; all we know is that this one occurrence wasn't enough to do it. Claims that "she's definitely redeemable" or "she's irredeemable" aren't within the scope of what little information we've been given. People seem to lean towards the latter option due to the fact that within the episode, Gilda shows no signs of repentance. It's an assumption on the part of the viewer, but it's an understandable one.

I also want to note that outside of Equestria, the weather and whatever apparently goes on it's own. That may apply to the sun and moon as well; meaning that the ponies could theoretically have survived by importing food from elsewhere. Extremely unlikely, but possible. But overall I agree with the idea that Nightmare Moon wasn't attempting genocide and probably didn't have that particular consequence in mind.

edited 21st Jul '11 7:11:44 PM by JapaneseTeeth

@ kegisak. you may be partly right but I don't think that interpretation of Gilda holds water as all of Ponyville wanted to welcome her.

I repeat, Rainbow Dash had better friends, otherwise she was just as big a dick as Gilda. I'm not saying Gilda wasn't responsible for her own behaviour, but her present company couldn't have been doing her any favours

edited 21st Jul '11 7:09:59 PM by gingerninja666

Somehow, I don't think she thought that far. Killing everyone probably wasn't her intention. So I guess it would be genocide of the third degree.

So you're saying Dash was a thief then.

1. Luna was evil by choice canon wise.
2. Pinkie tried to redeem Gilda so she isn't a lost cause.
3. Twilight said that Trixie might learn her lesson one day

Luna is an immortal godess of course she knew what she was doing more than 1000 years old infact

edited 21st Jul '11 7:13:27 PM by FallenLegend

but Gilda seemed like less of a jerk. In her acting, it was subtle but I could definitely see a hint a hint of sadness and loss behind all that pride

edited 21st Jul '11 7:12:27 PM by gingerninja666

I still have no idea where it was stated as Word Of God that an outside influence had anything to do with Nightmare Moon.

Oh, we can say they were responsible for their actions, but that doesn't mean that there weren't any reason behind it. I'm an exorbatent asshole, and I'll readily admit it. But I wasn't just born like that, I have my reasons. And yeah, it doesn't take a lot of assuming to call someone a dick because they're a dick. You can just call it a day after that.

BUT, one of the first lessons I ever learned is that people have history. People don't just spring into shape as a nice guy, or as a dick. Nothing is ever that simple. I just believe in giving someone the benefit of a doubt. Sure, sometimes a reason isn't enough, but we haven't seen enough of wither to call it one way or another. They still could come back and cover themselves. And for that matter, at least Trixie tried to fight the Ursa, even when she knew she couldn't beat it. That, I'd call a redeeming quality.

@Ginger: I'm not sure where you're getting this "Dash would be just as bad as Gilda with different friends" thing from. We literally know nothing about Gilda's social background. Maybe Gilda has gryphon friends who are just more willing to put up with her crap.

Agreed; I think that some people are more prone to dickishness than others, but they always have the choice of whether or not they're going to act according to that impulse.

edited 21st Jul '11 7:14:55 PM by JapaneseTeeth

yes, genocide was not Nightmare's intent. she is not a Complete Monster.

Rainbow Dash was willing to go a lot farther with her pranks if it weren't for Pinkie stepping in. If nothing else she would definnitely be a bigger jer without her current friends

Yet Gilda IS

edited 21st Jul '11 7:15:53 PM by gingerninja666

You mean tricking Fluttershy with a fake animal?

That just means that Dash isn't very emotionally sensitive, which is a bad trait, but not necessarily one of dickishness, or one that makes her the same as Gilda. What would be telling would be the aftermath; Gilda would probably laugh at Fluttershy's distress, whereas Dash would probably be apologetic.

edited 21st Jul '11 7:16:33 PM by JapaneseTeeth

You are saying that an immortal goddess ( more than 1000 years old). Not to mention Celestia herself telling Luna of the consequences wasn't aware of the consequences of her actions?

That seems very unlikely.

Luna isn't a monster but she ain't innocent either.

edited 21st Jul '11 7:19:09 PM by FallenLegend

I was just using it as an example of how her current friends ARE a good influence on her and she's been around them for a long time, we have no way of knowing whether Gilda would've mellowed out if she was around them aswell. I just try to be optimistic

edited 21st Jul '11 7:18:45 PM by gingerninja666

@Ginger: I don't think anyone is seriously calling Gilda a Complete Monster.

EDIT: It's entirely possible that that's the case; we just don't know enough to say for sure. We don't know what Rainbow Dash would be like without the rest of the cast, and we don't know what Gilda would be like if she were around them.

It really depends on how much maturity we attribute to Luna. We don't know her character, so she could easily be a lot more impulsive or whatever than Celestia is.

Also, we should keep in mind that this is a kid's show, and moral issues that would normally be really complex are being seriously simplified to that end.

edited 21st Jul '11 7:19:46 PM by JapaneseTeeth

Methinks not everyone has the same idea of what classifies a Complete Monster here. I get the feeling we'll be running in circles soon.

edited 21st Jul '11 7:19:45 PM by Parable

That's true. One more reason I can't wait for season 2 :)

edited 21st Jul '11 7:20:38 PM by FallenLegend

Yeah, I hardly think that anyone would call Gilda a Complete Monster unless they were joking about it.

I think the main issue here is that there are tons of fanon interpretations of the characters that are coloring our perceptions of their actions in the show.

edited 21st Jul '11 7:21:31 PM by JapaneseTeeth

@http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=rp9u726d6kev3mymml5wtnxm&page=442#11038

Nobody is saying she's a Complete Monster. If she'd caused some lasting damage and not even cared, then yeah, she'd be a Complete Monster. Right now what is being asserted is that she's a Jerkass thief who shows no inclination to change. I can still see her being redeemed, even quickly, if she ever appears again. But at the end of her appearance, she was no closer to that end than at the beginning.

edited 21st Jul '11 7:21:29 PM by TurnwaysFlip

You're right. I'm sorry. I just like using this show as an idealistic slice of escapism, and seeing how much hate is garnered for thse characters does indeed upset me.

I just thought I saw a glimmer of hope at the end of her episode, even if it was subtle

edited 21st Jul '11 7:23:57 PM by gingerninja666

@JTeeth: Luna's Celestia's younger sister, so there's plenty of potential for feelings of inadequacy when compared to her beloved older sister, or just simple lack of thinking things through - she's young, and even alicorns have to grow into wisdom and maturity.

Oh my god, you guys post fast.

^I know where you're coming from, really. I get the same way.

edited 21st Jul '11 7:23:55 PM by RedSavant

we seem to be having a 'heated debate' - those sorts of things tend to inspire lots of posting.

I agree, both for Gilda and Trixie. For everything else that happened, they both seemed so alarmingly human at the end that I couldn't help but want to see them back.

edited 21st Jul '11 7:28:18 PM by kegisak