@ben10fan: Just because defeat may not equal friendship doesn't mean the villain is a complete monster. We have two examples of defeat for an antagonist not meaning friendship in this show itself, Trixie and Gilda, and while I not going to stir up that discussion again...

Anyway, ben10fan, you seem to be missing a very important distinction between 'a villain' and 'a complete monster'. Yes, the pilot had a villain, but she was a fairly tragic figure once you think about it - and she showed remorse and repentance once she was purified. A Complete Monster in those circumstances would spit in Twilight's face as she offered him a hoof up; that's what irredeemable means. No forgiveness, and not a single instant of looking for it.

edited 23rd Jul '11 3:44:23 PM by RedSavant

Leaving aside for a moment the fact that that completely misses the point, The enjoyment of cruel and unspeakable acts is evil. Freiza, was evil.

Slightly more along the actual point, what is it, exactly, that you disagree with? I made several points in that post. Do you disagree with all of them? Do you disagree that the introduction of a monster would create a tonal shift?

True, clear CM is character who you don't like because he is that evil. There are many bad guys who are not true, clear CM, they are pure evil but you still can like them.

For exmaple Xykon from Order of the Stick, he is one of most evil or most evil character in this webcomic but many fants still like him because he is enjoyeable as villain.

One other thing what CM article pointed out:

"Please note that the Complete Monster can also sometimes be indicative of lazy writing: a villain with no redeeming qualities can be viewed as exceedingly simplistic"

That also true.

Guys, we should just try to ignore him. ben10fan hasn't listened to us and that's that, I'm actually growing intensely weary of him (what with his appearances on other threads aswell)

Although, I would be willing to accept an irredeemable villain in the form of an ancient evil spirit of some kind. I just find it better to leave normal (mortal) villains open to possible redemption, it allows for multiple interpretations of different characters that can be fun to debate (even if we do get volatile at times) CM's easily become stale if not handled perfectly

edited 23rd Jul '11 3:56:11 PM by gingerninja666

Good an idea as that is, my pigheadedness refuses to keep from at least trying to reason with him.

^^^That's incorrect. Complete Monster has nothing to do with whether a villain is likeable; Xykon, for instance, is specifically listed under the trope (in the Webcomics section). He's truly, irredeemably evil, and whether people like him or not doesn't change his CM status.

edited 23rd Jul '11 4:00:31 PM by RedSavant

I hope he isn't trolling.

I disagree that a Complete Monster would be a bad addition to the show. and C Ms can be liked as villains, Friza is proof of this.

and Gilda and Trixie are not villains. pure evil or not, a villain is someone that wants to do something bad and fights the good guys. and I'll stop now as I don't think I have anything else to add.

edited 23rd Jul '11 3:59:10 PM by Ben10fan

I'm honestly unsure

No. Just... No. A villain is a broad term used to describe an antagonist. An antagonist is just someone who opposes the protagonist (main character) in some way. They don't need to be fought at all, or even defeated

edited 23rd Jul '11 4:02:17 PM by gingerninja666

agreed.

For the record frieze isn't a cm

edited 23rd Jul '11 3:59:57 PM by FallenLegend

They can make good villains, yes. But they need to be put in specific places for them to work. And they do not work here.

Okay, look at it this way. A complete monster has done something despicable in the world of the show. Now, while Equestria might be a bit happier than earth, on the whole we can say it function the same way. So the level of villainy necessary for someone to be considered a complete monster in Equestria is roughly on par with that of earth. Now, this is subjective, of course, but do you know what it takes, to my mind, to be considered a monster?

Mass murder.

Rape.

child-killing and molesting.

That is the level of evil we are dealing with here. Is it so difficult to see why this doesn't belong in a show intended for little girls? Why something so irredeemably vile need not be shown in a world populated by magical talking horses? It would go darker than the 80's version, back when networks acceptied this kind of stuff. It would give you not just Mood Whiplash, but actual, physical whiplash.

I'm sorry. I hate to be the one to say this, and I hate even more to have to threaten this. But please, everyone here has expressed a distaste for this topic. Some of us have expressed a distaste for you personally. Please, please let it go. Or I will call a mod on you.

I'm sorry.

This discussion again? This is like the sixth time I've come to see this Complete Monster MLP talk.

Guess who keeps bringing it up? Just Guess.

Has he done anything that a mod could have him done for though? (technically speaking)

edited 23rd Jul '11 4:07:24 PM by gingerninja666

I only like Team Four Stars Freeza. I still can't call CM a character who I like, Xykon, Palpatine or others. (Only character who I can remeber and is CM for is Cartman). But this not discusion for this tread.

And back to this tread, I wish to see some ancient evil or even some Cosmic Horror in MLPFIM, but that kind of evil is also something what I can't really call CM.

He's been told to stop making the same post over and over by a mod before.

Is there really no other subject to discuss? Have we sunk so low as to be forced to compare Pinkie Pie and the Joker? Most assuredly I say to you we are better then this.

I don't know. But I'd give it a shot. At the very least, it would be a warning.

it's not that there's nothing better to talk about, it's that the topic keeps getting brought up over. and over. and over. And I, silly little man that I am, keep trying to argue it.

edited 23rd Jul '11 4:13:25 PM by kegisak

Ah, you said it, now I have to post it.

Pinkie Pie is both Pony Joker and Batmane.

Has she come to save Gotham? Or destroy it?

Neither she came to party!!!

Pinkie (Pinkamena) killed her family because they don;t liked every party what she trowed and later she became vigilanty hero seeking vengeance against murder and to prothetc others from same fate.

And that how Equestria was made.

I love how no matter what Equestria's creation story we think up, Equestria always ends up as the byproduct of something else.

Is there anything outside of Equestria? Or is it the whole world in the show?