Ok. Last word on this. I really wanna calm down. In my mind, Celestia's stronger because I think it fits her personality better.

No canon basis whatsoever, but whatever. I don't like showoffs being the strongest

@ deathpigeon: Because Twilight didn't embody any of the other Elements.

The show gives even less evidence that there were others involved.

Can one not be in harmony with themselves?

edited 13th Feb '12 11:56:46 AM by Badwolfwho

I suppose one can, but I'm pretty sure the Elements work much better when in tandem then when used unilaterally.

Exhibit A: Moon Banishment vs Evil Erasure

Exhibit B: Discord meeting the same fate twice, because the Elements were used by a group each time.

edited 13th Feb '12 11:58:30 AM by Enlong

@Enlong and Rose: But I still find the fact that two ponies were all that was needed to wield the Elements to kind of defeat the point of them being about friendship and working together. They're supposed to be wielded by six ponies, not one, not two, not three, not four, not even five. And it actually gives no evidence either way on whether or not there were people helping.

edited 13th Feb '12 11:59:30 AM by deathpigeon

@J Teeth: That's honestly one of the more annoying aspects of the season openers. They feature all these things that should have some kind of implications through the show, but ultimately they don't, because it is not that kind of show. that does bring up the question of why it was in the show if it wasn't the point though there are decent out of universe reasons for it.

Yeah I agree with one pony being less useful than a factor of six ponies.

That in itself is evidence that there aren't other ponies involved. The legends are accurate and only describe Celestia and Luna.

edited 13th Feb '12 12:01:04 PM by Badwolfwho

I always figured (and this is just me) that the 6th element represented the Bonds of friendship (the spark). So, I took that to mean that the elements will always be at their strongest when used with more than one person

If there was a group of five other ponies working with Celestia, you'd think they'd be immortalized in the story as well.

And if the elements were re-attuened to that group of five, you'd think Discord's seal would have broken much sooner than it did.

Well, yes. Magic is Friednship.

Same principle as the fire that destroyed the Windigos.

edited 13th Feb '12 12:01:48 PM by Enlong

I agree that the elements were designed to be used by six friends. The princesses may be able to work around that though, possibly wth some loss of effectiveness.

I don't think that we need to assume that Luna betrayed her elements, Celestia didn't, but the mane six still took hers.

As for Celestia being stronger than Luna, I think that that's pretty safe to assume, yes.

Or could have Celestia and Luna represented all six elements.

Nothing to say they can't be re-attuned without the user betraying the elements. I just think it's cool from a story standpoint if Luna turned her back on those virtues when she fell.

And if one element (Generosity) was part of the reason for her fall.

The EOH were forged from flames taken from the fires of friendship.

This is why I like to believe that some part of Luna's heart resonated with her elements and allowed Celestia to use em. So in a way, Luna used the elements on herself.

I know I'm alone in thinking that though, I just think it sounds sweet

@Chadman: We're talking about when they took out Discord, though.

EDIT: Epically ninja'd

edited 13th Feb '12 12:04:56 PM by Sereg

Ginger.

If there is anything that you are alone in thinking, it's "thinking that you're alone in thinking of your theories".

@Ginger: No, that sounds cool.

This.

edited 13th Feb '12 12:07:23 PM by Bluespade

I just think it covers up the problem. You need a relationship to power the elements, and Celestia used her relationship with her sister to defeat Nightmare Moon.

Plus, it would give Celestia the confidence to believe that Luna could be saved some day, if she KNEW somehow that there was still good in her sister's heart

I'd like a coherent timeline, but that'll never happen. So theories it is. Theories everywhere.

It's still posible that others helped Celestia and Luna. We know that the book didn't record everything. Then there's the four stars who helped Nightmare moon escape and the statues in the garden.

EDIT: And yes, Ginger, I don't think that you've ever been alone in an opinion. I've seen many agree with you many times and I've done so too.

edited 13th Feb '12 12:10:39 PM by Sereg

You know, back on the subject of strong mages not being the kind to show off, that reminds me of a theory I had about Nightmare Moon. The reason she doesn't just go up to the main six and curb stomp 'em at the beginning is because she prefers to do things subtley. Why throw lightning at them when you can just shift a few loose rocks? Why bar the river when you can get a sea serpent to do it for you? Why confront them yourself when you can easily enrage the nearest wild beast in their path?

Nightmare Moon is much more subtle, and much less willing to expend a whole ton of effort than Luna.

Which isn't to say that Nightmare Moon is above showing off when she wants. See: her appearance in the town hall.

edited 13th Feb '12 12:11:01 PM by Enlong

@Enlong What if NM was trying to show her superiority by trying to emulate her Sister's method of doing things? She's jealous of her sister, her NM form looks a lot older than her natrual form, I think she was trying to make herself more like Celestia... down to the acting subtley and devising plans part.

Unfortunately, she didn't quite pull it off correctly and ended up screwing herself over. She would've won had she acted more like herslef.

Like how Schneizel lost when he intentionally refused to act with ambition

edited 13th Feb '12 12:15:40 PM by gingerninja666

@Enlong Well yeah. Most powerful villains tend toy with the heroes till the last second when they realize the heroes can actually beat them.

And I just now realize that's how both villains lost.

Yeah, villains have a problem with smug superiority, and not bringing everything they have to bear until it's too late.

A possibility, to be sure.

edited 13th Feb '12 12:16:38 PM by Enlong

Really, that's the ONLY way those villains could've lost. They were too strong.

Indeed, that is what kind of annoyed me about Discord (though not Nightmare Moon).