@Applelight: Having othes call him out on it is a help. Better is that it causes him actual problems. Even better is both.

@Applelight You might like Edward Elric.

edited 27th Dec '12 1:20:52 PM by DavidtheMouse14

@Sereg I've personally gotten kind of tired of the TMPP debate, but if it's happening anywhere, it should be here.

@Applelight: I don't know. It doesn't look like anyone is willing to start it up again.

That aside their is a bit of a question that I want to ask about a very popular season one episode, Party of One. I know that it is an episode that many people consider it the best of the first season, but I have to ask, if it weren't for the famous "crazy Pinkie" scenes, would the episode ever be as popular as it is?

edited 27th Dec '12 1:21:38 PM by Mio

That debate again? Time to go then :P

@ David

Haven't watched it. But I really should.

@ Sereg

Yes, that's it.

Actually, I've just been reminded of Marty McFly and his problem with being called chicken.

@ Mio

Probably not. Those scenes make it.

edited 27th Dec '12 1:24:34 PM by ApplelightLimited

@ Mio: Really? It's considered the best of series 1? I think it's fairly average personally.

Of course. They don't even sound like spoilers.

What would you put in place of Crazy Pinkie? Extremely depressed Pinkie? We had that for a moment, and then after the commercial break she's talking to rocks and bags of flour. Could they still be funny with depressed!Pinkie? Lets be honest, they probably aren't allowed to go for very long in a Pinkie Episode without something funny happening.

The crazy Pinkie scenes helped because they really got us further into her psyche and that was a big par of how the episode improved my opinion of her. I used to have a very low opinion of her.

As for the debate, well, I still have issues with the ending. But if no one wants to discuss that, we don't have to.

Japanese Teeth: I honestly don't pay that much attention to the writers; the only one that sticks out much to me is Williams, and even that's mostly because everybody else is talking about it.

Seraphem: Same, the only one I really don't look at them past, well that one.

Bluespade: I'm the same. I've liked every episode this Dave guy wrote though (I still don't get the hate for FPK and OAB). The only writer I really pay much attention to is Meghan, for writing the wedding finale and because she's now the lead writer.

Sereg: I don't usually pay a lot of attention to the writers either. I only started because others discussed it so much, but checking, I've noticed some patterns with themes and the ones I enjoy more. EDIT:She's my favourite. Her character reactions are both funny and sympathtic. My problem with OAB can be explained by JT's review of it. As well as my distaste for the buffulo being somewhat personal because they remind me of how bleak my future is. A lot of Dave's episodes hit people's personal buttons. TMPP hit one of mine as well.

Mio: I find it interesting to see the various similarities and differences of the different writers. That being said pretty much every writer has written episodes I like and episodes I didn't like.

terlwyth: Maybe Polsky's episodes did do that, but when you try to hit mature themes, ...that just happens. Williams episodes on the other hand don't vy for that too much (sans one episode), but most of them are very mean-spirited and rely heavily on Out of Character moments to work (especially the infamous "Mare Do Well", but even her treatment of "Putting Your Hoof Down" and "Dragon Quest"). Hell in one case she canceled out a moral ("Hearth's Warming Eve" was about tolerance, but "Dragon Quest" pretty much said, "Oh that works, except for dragons, screw them") Her recent episode was the first one not to be like that. Now as for Mc Carthy. Most her stuff that isn't "Party of One", "The Crystal Empire", or "Lesson Zero" seems to have a way of being very slow-paced and middle of the road, often the characters are kind of dulled out (Especially so in "Sweet and Elite", and "A Canterlot Wedding Part 1). For every "Hearts and Hooves Day" and "Party of One" and "Crystal Empire" and "Lesson Zero" is a disappointing "Green Isn't Your Favorite Color" or "A Canterlot Wedding" or 3/4 of "Dragonshy". I do hope Rogers comes back, haven't heard from her since the Mystery episode before the Wedding. I also hope to hear more from the Sleepless in Ponyville writer, since I don't recall another writer doing so well on the first run.

Seraphem: Well, given the overall opinion is that the Wedding was amazing, that more a personal thing. But Dave, well i don't have any issues, his writing isn't bad, is only real issue isn't that he puts in controversial or harder to deal with stuff, cuase he doens' really seem to do that, he simply tends not to look at how the stuff he does my lead to Unfortunate Implications the moral in FPK, wasn't about science vs religion, but he didn't see how people might take it that way OAB, again nothing at all wrong with the episode at all, until you add in the RL stuff about the old west and indians and what not. nothing IN the episode raised any of that, he just didn't see how people could associate the two TMP, again he simply didn't see that people might think the clones were real living being being slaughtered or killed, he just didn't think how it would look to other people.

Japanese Teeth: The main issue in FPK was just that they phrased the moral badly and underestimated the fandom's tendency to read into things. I personally consider it a decent if not awesome episode. OAB, though, I've never been a fan. I didn't really care for any of the new characters, the mane cast didn't contribute much to the plot, and the resolution came out of nowhere. Not to mention that the entire episode relies on the idea that both sides of the conflict have equally good reasons for wanting the land when I really think that if you look at it without respect to real life issues, the needs of the ponies far outweigh that of the buffalo. Yes, it sucks that they have to modify their traditional stampede route, but honestly, it shouldn't be that much of a hassle. If they feel so strongly about it, they should have left some signs saying "buffalo stampede grounds; do not block" or something. Given that the conflict boils down to "we need this land (that we didn't know was being used because it looked totally empty when we showed up) to grow food for our families" vs. "we need this land to be clear so we can stampede over it like once or twice a year because tradition", it's just hard for me to see the two sides being as equal as the episode makes them out to be. TMPP, I don't really have any problems with other than that the fakeness of the clones should have been more obvious, and Twilight should have been less trigger-happy. Again, it's less bad writing and more not realizing that people would take it so seriously when he considers it covered by Rule of Funny.

Seraphem: pretty much, he just doesn't stop to think how others could see it and realize how we will over analyze EVERYTHING!

The Freeman: I don't really see how it's a problem if someone takes an episode's moral seriously. Given that not everyone...takes it seriously. Like me.

Seraphem: the issue wasn't taking the morale seriously, the issue was with how badly it was worded making it far to easy to take as meaning something other then what he intended.

Sereg:Well, by my tier list: Meghan Mc Carthy wrote: 3 tier 1 eps, 3 tier 2 eps, 2 tier 3 eps and 1 tier 5 ep. Cindy Morrow wrote: 1 tier 1 ep, 1 ter 2 ep, 4 tier 3 eps, 1 tier 4 ep and 2 tier 5 eps. M. A. Larson wrote: 3 tier 1 eps, 4 tier 2 eps, 1 tier 3 e and 2 tier 4 eps (Hmm, looks like he's overtaken Meghan since I last checked). Charlotte Fullerto wrote : 1 tier 1 ep, 1 tier 2 ep, 1 tier 3 ep, 1 tier 4 ep and 1 tier 5 ep. Merriwether Williams wrote: 1 tier 1 ep, 1 tier 2 ep, 1 tier 3 ep and 2 tier 4 eps. Amy Keating Rogers wrote: 2 tier 2 eps, 2 tier 3 eps, 3 tier 4 eps and 3 tier 5 eps. Chris Savino wrote: 1 tier 2 ep and 1 tier 3 ep. Corey Powell wrote: 1 tier 2 ep. Lauren Faust wrote: 1 tier 3 ep. Dave Polsky wrote: 1 tier 3 ep, 1 tier 4 and 1 tier 5 ep. EDIT: I loved Green Isn't Your Favorite Color, A Canterlot Wedding and Dragonshy. My problems with OAB have zilch to do with real life cowboys and indians. I agree with JT on it. My real life distaste of it comes from African land reform and Black Economic Empowerment.

Seraphem: but again your issues are about RL things that the episode reminded you of, yet wasn't written to be about. Like i said, his biggest issue is failing to account for Unfortunate Implications

Sereg: @Serah: True. But I agree with JT about the episode as well. Still, the stats say that my least favourite witer is actually Rogers, which really surprises me. By the stats I used: Meghan Mc Carthy: 7 points. Cindy Morrow: - 2 points. M. A. Larson: 8 points Charlotte Fullerton: 0 points. Merriwether Williams: 1 point. Amy Keating Rogers: - 7 points. Chris Savino: 1 point. Corey Powell: 1 point. Lauren Faust: 0 points. Dave Polsky: - 3 points

(Page 2 comming)

Agreed with that, the only other writer that seemed to want to delve into other areas of Pinkie is the infamous (and unfairly so) Dave Polsky.

In FPK Pinkie delivered the insightful comment to Twilight "It's because you don't understand", she's clearly trying help Twilight out here and look at another viewpoint, this is something we don't see much of. It's sometimes hinted at sure.

And in TMPP the outbreak of the clones were her without her memories and exaggerated, this lead to good exploration as she broke down, we saw her trying so hard to be with her friends only to have it backfire. It doesn't matter if the clones were sentient or not. It was about the original Pinkie, that was the issue. It's almost null the question of the morality of getting rid of them, it had to be done end of story.

Yeah "Party of One" was in my top 10.

@Sereg: I'd rather pass on it, since it's based pretty much entirely on personal interpretation of the events. I'm all for discussion, but this particular one generally turns into "well, I thought it was like this" and "but I thought it was like this", because there's no hard evidence one way or the other.

Alesiopdv; Guys, on the topic of TMPP do you seriously thought the clones were alive? seriously? It was made perfectly clear that they were just mindless copies with not even Pinkie´s memories. That´s why Twilight had no problem shotting them and even then her real concern was hitting the real Pinkie by accident with the teleportation spell and that´s why they didn´t make her go all GTA on town and instead gathered all the Pinkies. See what I was talking about a few days ago about people taking the show waaaay too seriously? Instead of focusing on the lesson and Pinkie development all everybody says is "ohmygod Twilight is trigger-happy! She is killing ponies! She is killing them and then she is going to kill me ohmygod!" Okay I went overboard but seriously I don´t understand how anybody could think the clones were alive. Its like that "racist barn" joke, I sometimes wonder if I´m seeing the same show as everybody else. I loved OAB (buffaloes are awesome!) and my only problem with FPK is that Twilight forgot to aplogize to Fluttershy for not worrying about her (the only reason they traveled to the swamp to being with). But okay fair enoguh everybody has episodes they don´t like (mine are Ponyville Confidentail and Lesson Zero)its just the "Twilight murderer" thing I don´t get. She didn´t kill anybody they weren´t alive to begin with.

terlwyth: Faust wrote: 3 A episodes (the last of which was with Rogers) Rogers wrote: 5 A episodes (the first was with Faust, the third of these was an A+ episode), 4 B episodes, 1 C episode ("A Friend In Deed) Cindy Morrow wrote: 5 A episodes (the third of these was an A+ episode), 3 B episodes, 1 C episode ("One Bad Apple"), and 1 D episode ("The Show Stoppers") The seemingly dormant Chris Savino wrote: 1 A episode ("The Stare Master") and 1 D episode ("Boast Busters") The newcomer Corey Powell wrote: 1 A episode ("Sleepless in Ponyville") Meghan Mc Carthy wrote: 5 A episodes, 3 B episodes, 3 C episodes Charlotte Fullerton wrote: 4 A episodes (1 with Merriwether Williams), 2 B episodes MA Larson wrote: 4 A episodes (All of these except for "It's About Time" were A+ worthy), 7 B episodes Dave Polsky wrote: 3 A episodes (The third being "Too Many Pinkie Pies" had an A+) Merriwether Williams wrote: 2 A episodes (1 with Charlotte Fullerton), 1 B episode ("Wonderbolts Academy", and 2 F episodes So yeah I'll admit to overstating my distaste for Williams, since she can be pretty good, but when she misses, she misses hard And I'll admit my admiration for Larson is a little overstated since while he did write "The Cutie Mark Chronicles" and "The Return of Harmony" which are probably the best episodes ever. Every other episode is simply good, often great premises copped-out at the end.

Sereg: Dude. The Pinkie's were clearly demonstrated to be sapient individulas. They experienced indescision, fear, excitement, desire. They even debated!

Seraphem: Well Williams seems to have found the right style for FIM. her issue was never she was a bad writer, jus that her style wasn't wuited to a character driven, continuity heavy show like FIM, and she had to learn to make the story serves the characters, not the characters serve her story. and nothing that simply being a magical construst with a flash copy of Pinkie's most basic thought copied into it as a magical AI couldn't have done.

Davidthe Mouse 14: I wish you guys would be more precise with the episodes you're grading.

Sereg: @Seraphem: They had emotions!

As for my episode ratings, I divide them into 5 tiers. Best at the top: Canterlot Wedding (Meghan Mc Carthy), Hurricane Fluttershy (Cindy Morrow), Lesson Zero (Meghan Mc Carthy), Return of Harmony (M.A. Larson), It's About Time (M.A. Larson), Suited For Success (Charlotte Fullerton), Green Isn't Your Color (Meghan Mc Carthy), Hearth's Warming Eve (Merriwether Williams), Luna Eclipsed (M.A. Larson)

Bridle Gossip (Amy Keating Rogers), Cutie Pox (Amy Keating Rogers), Dragonshy (Meghan Mc Carthy), Party of One (Meghan Mc Carthy), Read It and Weep (Cindy Morrow), Baby Cakes (Charlotte Fullerton), Sonic Rainboom (M.A. Larson), Swarm of the Century (M.A. Larson), Cutie Mark Chronicles (M.A. Larson), Stare Master (Chris Savino), The Crystal Empire (Meghan Mc Carthy), Magic Duel (M.A. Larson), Sleepless in Ponyville (Corey Powell), Wonderbolt Academy (Merriwether Williams)

Sweet and Elite (Meghan Mc Carthy), Hearts and Hooves Day (Meghan Mc Carthy), Secret of My Excess (M.A. Larson), Best Night Ever (Amy Keating Rogers), Winter Wrap Up (Cindy Morrow), Family Appreciation Day (Cindy Morrow), May the Best Pet Win! (Charlotte Fullerton), Boast Busters (Chris Savino), Putting Your Hoof Down (Merriwether Williams), Friend in Deed (Amy Keating Rogers), Friendship is Magic (Lauren Faust), Too Many Pinkie Pies (Dave Polsky), One Bad Apple (Cindy Morrow), Apple Family Reunion (Cindy Morrow)

Bird in the Hoof (Charlotte Fullerton), Sisterhooves Social (Cindy Morrow), Dog and Pony Show (Amy Keating Rogers), Ponyville Confidential (M.A. Larson), Last Roundup (Amy Keating Rogers), MM Mystery on the Friendship Express (Amy Keating Rogers), Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 (M.A. Larson), Dragon Quest (Merriwether Williams), Mysterious Mare Do Well (Merriwether Williams), Feeling Pinkie Keen (Dave Polsky)

Show Stoppers (Cindy Morrow), Call of the Cutie (Meghan Mc Carthy), Owl's Well That Ends Well (Cindy Morrow), Look Before You Sleep (Charlotte Fullerton), Applebuck Season (Amy Keating Rogers), Ticket Master (Amy Keating Rogers), Fall Weather Friends (Amy Keating Rogers), Griffon the Brush Off (Cindy Morrow), Over a Barrel (Dave Polsky)

EDIT: I don't care if the Pinkies were artificial. The problem was that they were capable of thought.

Seraphem: No all we saw were preprogrammd responses to mimic the expression of emotion in the way the MI (magical intelligence) was programmed to assume Pinkie (or the surface Pinkie it copied) would react.

Sereg: If that were true, the test would have never worked. And the Pinkie's would have become depressed as easily as the real Pinkie. EDIT: You can't make the "the emotions are simulated" argument, as that leads to things with real emotions being treated as if they aren't. This has already happened IRL.

Seraphem: No, because they were not full and accurate copies of Pinkie, just very very very basic copies of her surface personality at the time she created the clones.

Sereg: I made an edit, and if they weren't perfect copies, they were individuals which gives them even more right to exist.

terlwyth: I wanted to divide it by writers but if you want grades so be it Top 10 Episodes Ever (All A-A+ , 1 is best) 10.S1, 11 "Winter Wrap Up" (A, Cindy Morrow) 9. S1, 25 "Party of One" (A, Meghan Mc Carthy) 8. S2, 5 "Sisterhooves Social" (A, Cindy Morrow) 7. S3, 6 "Sleepless in Ponyville" (A, Corey Powell) 6. S1, 13 "Fall Weather Friends" (A+, Amy Keating Rogers) 5. S3, 3 "Too Many Pinkie Pies" (A+, Dave Polsky) 4. S2, 16 "Read It And Weep" (A+, Cindy Morrow) 3. S2, 1 "Return of Harmony, Part 1" (A+, MA Larson) 2. S2, 2 "Return of Harmony, Part 2" (A+ MA Larson) 1. S1, 23 "The Cutie Mark Chronicles" (A+ MA Larson) The other A episodes are: Both parts of The Pilot (Lauren Faust), "The Ticket Master" (Lauren Faust/Amy Keating Rogers), "Applebuck Season" (Amy Keating Rogers), "Look Before You Sleep" (Charlotte Fullerton), "Call of the Cutie" (Meghan Mc Carthy), "Feeling Pinkie Keen" (Dave Polsky), "The Stare Master" (Chris Savino), "Over A Barrel" (Dave Polsky), "Lesson Zero" (Meghan Mc Carthy), "The Cutie Pox" (Amy Keating Rogers), "May the Best Pet Win" (Charlotte Fullerton), "Heath's Warming Eve" (Merriwether Williams), "Baby Cakes" (Charlotte Fullerton), "Putting Your Hoof Down" (Merriwether Williams/Charlotte Fullerton), "It's About Time" (MA Larson), "MMM Mystery on the Friendship Express" (Amy Keating Rogers), Both parts of "The Crystal Empire" (Meghan Mc Carthy), "Apple Family Reunion" (Cindy Morrow) The B grade episodes are: "Griffon the Brush-Off" (Cindy Morrow), "Dragonshy" (Meghan Mc Carthy), "Bridle Gossip" (Amy Keating Rogers), "Swarm of the Century" (MA Larson), "Suited for Success" (Charlotte Fullerton), "Sonic Rainboom" (MA Larson), "A Dog and Pony Show" (Amy Keating Rogers), "A Bird in the Hoof" (Charlotte Fullerton), "Owls Well That Ends Well" (Cindy Morrow), "The Best Night Ever" (Amy Keating Rogers), "Luna Eclipsed" (MA Larson), "The Secret of My Excess" (MA Larson), "Family Appreciation Day" (Cindy Morrow), "The Last Roundup" (Amy Keating Rogers), The Cider episode (MA Larson), "Hearts and Hooves Day" (Meghan Mc Carthy), "Ponyville Confidential" (MA Larson), "A Canterlot Wedding Part 2" (Meghan Mc Carthy), "The Magic Duel" (MA Larson), "Wonderbolts Academy" (Merriwether Williams) The C episodes: "Green Isn't Your Color" (Meghan Mc Carthy), "Sweet and Elite" (Meghan Mc Carthy), "A Friend In Deed" (Amy Keating Rogers), "A Canterlot Wedding Part 1" (Meghan Mc Carthy), "One Bad Apple" (Cindy Morrow) The D episodes: "Boast Busters" (Chris Savino), "The Show Stoppers" (Cindy Morrow) The Absolutely Abysmal F episodes: "The Mysterious Mare Do Well" (Merriwether Williams), "Dragon Quest" (Merriwether Williams) On the Pinkie Clones issue: Also it don't matter to me if the Pinkies were sentient or not, they destroyed everything and ran crazy, there was no other way and the fact that episode didn't Flanderize Pinkie and took her seriously is more than enough to make for it.

Japanese Teeth:

@Sereg: Here's the thing:

The Pinkie's were clearly demonstrated to be sapient individulas. They experienced indescision, fear, excitement, desire. They even debated!

The operative word being "clearly". I don't agree with that like, at all. They may have looked like they had emotions or whatever, but there is no hard evidence whether or not they were legitimately sapient. I fully understand that you interpret it that way and it bothers you, but you can't go stating that the degree of sapience was objectively obvious, because a lot of people (myself included) watched the exact same episode and came to the conclusion that they weren't. I'm not saying your interpretation is any less valid than mine, but it's hardly as obvious as you're making it out to be. If it was we wouldn't be having this argument.

Oh wow, that's a lot of words. Speaking of a lot of words, I'm continuing in Fallout: Equestria. Just read the part where SteelHooves murders Zecora.

That certainly isn't confusing.

edited 27th Dec '12 2:04:54 PM by DavidtheMouse14

http://derpiboo.ru/195148

Interesting thing about Alicorns. Hmm but that script was very long.

I'm off. See you all soon.

It wasn't murder. A tragedy and a mistake, yes, not murder.

Seriously?

Understood. I've studied ethics and the history of it and it comes very close to historical stuff that I've found extremely distasteful, such as the belief in souless automata. As I did my Masters in genetics, I had to think about this stuff in extreme detail as it is Serious Business in the academic world.. I saw the Pinkies as children and naturally was horrified by seeing that happen to little children.

EDIT: Sorry, Seraphem, but that was mudrer.Murder based on a mistaken belief, but murder nonetheless.

edited 27th Dec '12 2:06:25 PM by Sereg

A soldier sees what he has every reason to believe is a spy and a traitor infiltrating a top secret area, with another soldier laying dying nearby and attacks while in the middle of a war with her people. how is that murder? the ONLY ponies that we knew of that knew she wasn't were Dash, Pinkie, and that guard who was dying and unable to talk becuase Zecora accidetnaly hit him to hard, and crushed his windpipe instead of just knocking him out.

Erm, wrong thread?

no, responding to Pannic

edited 27th Dec '12 2:06:55 PM by Seraphem

My issues with FPK are mostly just personal bias, but I'm not a huge fan of slapstick and that episode was a bit of a slapstick overload. Plus it was all aimed directly at Twi, which made me feel awful for her. On the other hand, Pinkie rolling in the grass is incredibly adorable.

Seraph: Um, she surrendered and then he murdered her in cold blood with the intent to cover up that he ignored her surrender.