I guess I just feel that it's less about trying to defy gender roles and more about trying to. . .I'm not sure how to say. I just remember in the early stages and even now there was great deal of effort to try to separate this iteration of MLP from the rest. It was as though the bronies were trying to "repossess" Fi M away from the "bad" feminine implications, of the older generations.

I don't know, I guess I'm just cynical about that sort of thing.

edited 10th Dec '12 11:33:48 AM by Mio

@story: It must be nice to be surrounded by geeks all the time.

I am, too, but I don't think any of them even come close to my level.

My older sister's friends think that she counts as a geek, just because she likes Harry Potter and has maybe seen a couple episodes of Star Trek with me. These people have no standards.

Ignoring the issue of gender roles all together is the best way to move past them.

I admit I kind of have a problem with the whole "Rated M for Manly" thing. I feel excluded, but for feeling excluded, I feel like a whiny little bitch.

edited 10th Dec '12 11:37:50 AM by condottiera

@condotierra I kinda like it. Sure, there's some kids that occasionally burn down buses prompted by something that calls itself a communist party (hint:it's a shadow of cold war times), and there's an earthquake every once in a while (California has a faultline, this country IS a faultline), but I like it. Nothing too serious happens, crime ain't too troubling, and the weather doesn't get too bad. One thing though: You will NEVER hear a Chilean say anything good about Chileans, and that includes me.

There is a forum for Chilean bronies, and I'm a member, but the poor forum's pretty dead, with the mods abandoning it for weeks.

As for the gender role thing, it could use some work over here. There's been a lot of progress, but it's several years behind USA, Europe, and others.

edited 10th Dec '12 11:40:44 AM by Lopiny

Aw, sorry to hear about the thread.

Still, you have us to talk to.

If English is your second language, you are very good. You sound like a natural speaker. I never would have guessed it was not your first language,

@Mio: I think at least part of that has to do with the fact that the older generations are generally considered not as high quality, and the fact that they are very girl-oriented in the most stereotypical way possible. I mean, yes, some people take it way too far with the "OLDER GENERATIONS MUST BURN" stuff, but at the same time I can't really blame people for wanting to make it clear that they aren't watching stuff like this:

edited 10th Dec '12 11:41:35 AM by JapaneseTeeth

Thanks. I got brought up in a British school, where many subjects were taught in English, complete with a headmaster who survived the Blitz (and used having classes in the subway during a bombing as an argument as to why a nearby bushfire wasn't an excuse to cancel school that day).

And I've enjoyed this thread quite a bit. Although making the move from "one post every three hours" to "archive binge if you leave for the day" has been jarring, but better in the end.

edited 10th Dec '12 11:45:10 AM by Lopiny

The sort of attitude that often goes into "girl" shows is one of "it's for little girls, so who cares?"

Thus, the quality suffers, the stereotype is reinforced, and the prophecy is self-fulfilling.

That's why it's so great that FIM gives a damn.

That sounds totally Badass.

edited 10th Dec '12 11:43:43 AM by condottiera

Exactly. The reason a lot of bronies are so quick to cut ties with older generations is because those generations are partially to blame for the whole "girls' shows suck" assumption. I know for me at least it's less "I'm afraid of watching them because they're too girly" and more because they're just bad; the fact that they're also really girl oriented doesn't really factor into it.

That bushfire wasn't that big of a problem, but one constant in every school is that students will use anything to skip school, and apparently a slight tinge of smoke in the air which would be surpassed by a larger than average BBQ was enough for them to try.

And to get back on topic, once the girl show ghetto is created, it reinforces itself. Imagine an animator getting hired to write one of those shows back when it was going full strength. He'd be all "this is a waste, but I need the money. Let's get this over with" and put little effort on it.

edited 10th Dec '12 11:49:23 AM by Lopiny

yeah, cause you can totally hear him over the internet

that's pretty hardcore dude.

These days, if anyone describes something to me as 'girly', I wonder if they mean 'good' girly like FIM, or 'bad' girly like...I don't know...something that fits the usual type better.

Either way, it's 'detoxifying' the notion of girliness, and that's great.

@J Teeh: I know that MLP in the past has produced some bad media, and it is rightfully criticized for that.

However, Bronies still seem to be a very solidly masculine group and plays directly into the whole stereotype of Masculine=Good, and Feminine=Bad. It may not exactly be explicit, but there is that undercurrent.

@Applelight: See the video I posted above for a good example.

But yeah, the core problem is that the world got hit with a rash a bad girl cartoons, and it created an assumption that they were bad because they were girl cartoons, which as Con said, creates a negative feedback loop. Then FIM came along and blew up that idea. It was one of the first cartoons that targetted girls but was high enough quality to draw in other demographics as well by virtue of being Just That Good.

It's really kind of inevitable. You're going to have Unfortunate Implications either way. That said, even that still has its upside; it means that people who consider themselves more masculine can enjoy feminine entertainment without feeling like they're sacrificing their identity. While there is a definite bias towards masculine entertainment, being masculine isn't any more of a bad thing than being feminine is. Sure, it's a far cry from making it clear that being girly is totally okay, but it's a step in the right direction to say that guys can like MLP and still be guys.

edited 10th Dec '12 11:53:05 AM by JapaneseTeeth

That undercurrent is ingrained into society as a whole, and it needs to be eroded away like all idiotic customs. And I say eroded because removing it quickly would take a big event which might have other consequences that might be a lot less desirable.

edited 10th Dec '12 11:51:06 AM by Lopiny

That's another Double Standard that gets on my nerves.

Like, this is another thing that bothers me, and it bothers me that it does bother me.

Why is Badass in a Nice Suit different from Hot Chick in a Badass Suit?

Is it because a hot chick can't be as Badass as her suit is, or as a male Badass is, or something? I know it's just semantics, but it disturbs me a little every time I see it.

Am I just being pedantic here, or do I have a point?

@Blissy: You know what I mean. :P

edited 10th Dec '12 11:51:51 AM by condottiera

I admit, Girlyness is a factor for me. It took me ages to work us the confidence to start watching the show. It seems silly now, but I suspect if a situation like this show comes up again, I'll still be hesitant to start watching.

Saying that, this isn't the first Girly thing I've enjoyed, and it probably will not be the last. A quality show is still quality regardless of intended audience. MLP has shown this very nicely.

There is nothing inherently "good" or "bad" about femininity or masculinity, and in fact, some of the very traits that define the notions of what they are are culturally constructed.

I mean, I hate that I'm ashamed of being seen as "masculine, " because I know I shouldn't have to be, but it's a hard thing to get past.

On the other hand, we don't have an Estrogen Poisoning trope at all for when some character is considered "too feminine" but do have one called Testosterone Poisoning.

Keep that mind.

And if a women were that absurdly Badass, would it still be called Testosterone Poisoning?

As much as I could be wrong by saying this, a lot of that could be covered by Tastes Like Diabetes.

edited 10th Dec '12 11:59:27 AM by Lopiny

I just saw the page image for Tastes Like Diabetes.

Ah, Lisa Frank... that takes me back.

I wouldn't say that stuff was saccharine to the point of being sickening, though. She just put rainbow dolphins on pencil cases.

edited 10th Dec '12 12:01:59 PM by condottiera

Tastes Like Diabetes seems like it's a bit over-troped (if that is an appropriate term).

Anyway, I guess I don't like the thought that the only reason this show is considered good is cause the "boys" like it. When it happens the other way around usually the opposite happens.

edited 10th Dec '12 12:11:33 PM by Mio

In fact, I find that many things that are ultra feminine don't fall under the "Tastes Like Diabetes" banner at all.

@Mio: Sort of like how some of the toy collectors who've been following MLP since Generation 1 are pissed that these upstart bronies are the ones suddenly getting all the media attention?

I don't think of myself as challenging my gender role, and I honestly refuse to take any political or sociological stance past "people can watch what they want". I'm just watching a quality cartoon, same as I watch any other quality piece of entertainment.

edited 10th Dec '12 12:21:14 PM by PerpetualLurker