T He very fact that there are spells that apparently "don't fall into any category" undermines your argument.

Spells fitting into many non-overlapping talents is possible, but that makes unicorns knowing only a few spells make even less sense.

As for Pumpkin Cake, I meant that she demonstrated several spells without ever learning any of them.

I'm very much more of the opinion that general telekinesis and the like are innate spells that every unicorn can use. Ponies are naturally more or less adept at other, more specific or flashier spells (gem-finding, teleportation, lasers). In Dungeons and Dragons terms, most unicorns are sorcerers - they have innate magical ability and spells aren't formulae, but instinctive for the most part. More specialized or complicated spells can of course be taught, though.

I'm of the opinion that even if a unicorn was absolute shit at gem-finding, if they really loved geology and hunting for jewels and worked hard to pursue their passion, they would have a gem cutie mark.

Well with Pumpkin it's mostly instinct at the moment, I think for instance: She wanted her toys but couldn't reach them, so her magic levitated them over to her. She wanted to fly with her brother, her magic levitated her so that she could. She phased through the playpen that she and Pound were trapped in because she wanted to get out and play. Basically, until they can learn to actually control it, her magic functions as her base desires rather than any intentional casting.

The boxing stances in Dragon Quest and walking on three legs in Crystal Empire.

Yeah, I think that it's even possible for a pony with no interest in gems to be able to learn the spell, it's just that the fact that it doesn't interest them means they wouldn't bother. Unicorns are specialized because it's not worth the effort to take the time to learn other spells.

To use a real life analogy, most people have a few skills they're good at rather than being awesome at everything (not that there aren't exceptions). I.e. writing comes naturally to me, whereas if I want to draw something I really have to work at it. It doesn't mean that I'm totally unable to draw, just that if I want to get to the level of somebody with an innate talent for drawing I'd have to put a lot of work in.

@Sereg Your're misinterpreting me. I'm not saying unicorns can't learn lots of spells, just that they can't learn just any spell, but only those that are relevant to their talents. And I'm in no way arguing against innately knowing spells, either, so long as said spells factor into the caster's talents as well.

I'm just going with what the show explicitly spelled out, here.

edited 20th Nov '12 8:21:06 AM by PerpetualLurker

I'm not arguing that most unicorns only know a few spells related to their talents, I just think that the reason for that is that most unicorns could learn other spells but it's too much work to bother, rather than being totally unable to do so. The end result is nearly the same, though, and it's basically conjecture at this point.

What do you mean except Nightmare Moon?

You can be anything you want to be, but you can't be everything.

That has certain... implications...

edited 20th Nov '12 8:24:24 AM by KylerThatch

MLP: Magic is Controversial

I think Red's really gets the best at how I think. Some things are just innate, the unicorn just "knows" them. Where as others can be learned, but not by everypony.

And it supports how Lauren viewed unicorn magic, she saw it more like art, some ponies are better at somethings, but they can always study other styles and try them, but some will just be easier, and some they just can't get the hang of.

I'd say there are really just two things that determine if a pony can use a spell, raw power, some unicorns just won't have the magical muscle to pull off some of the bigger spells. And their overall dispostion/personality, magic is clearly all mental, no chants, or focus objects, or sigils, or other aides, the spell is held entirely inside the unicorns mind, and some ponies simply wont be able to understand a spell well enough to hold it all in their head as they are casting it.

Better version, while they are not limited by their special talent, they are limited by what they are able to understand and process in terms of magic. If they just can't understand how a spell works and is cast, they can't cast it, and it's easy to the point of innate for them to understand spells associated with their special talent, others varies from pony to pony on how hard it is.

edited 20th Nov '12 8:26:10 AM by Seraphem

Nightmare Moon was a symbiote controlling Luna.

I don't think Celestia was THAT lonely...

I see Nightmare Moon as just Luna personally.

also what JT said, no unicorn (save Twilight) could learn EVERY spell, but they can learn some spells outside their special talent, it just takes a lot of effort, a certain mindset, and most unicorns simply don't bother.

symbiote? not a "parasite"?

Spiderman reference.

I first decided on the Symbiote theory when I was thinking of Spiderman.

My mind works in weird ways when it comes to theories...

On Magic Debate: I think any unicorn could learn any spell if they applied themselves enough. This is extremely hard to do without training. And my headcanon is that formal training is restricted to a few academies (most in Canterlot) that cater exclusively to the nobility or extremely rich explaining Twilight or Spike's statement of most unicorns only know one spell because the majority of unicorns aren't nobles and so weren't trained.

Depends on how you see Luna's part in the whole debacle.

Anyway, Random Nostalgia Time:

Well it did make her stronger.

I could see a unicorn being able to do a spell if they put enough training and focus into it, but the amount necessary would be enough to actually alter their talents. I could train myself to be a marathon runner with years of work, and afterwards I could count running among my talents. Talents aren't immutable. You just have to gain proficiency at the talent before you can use the spell associated with it, learning the mundane aspects before the magical.

edited 20th Nov '12 8:38:05 AM by PerpetualLurker

Lurker's got my thoughts on it, yeah. Saying someone's magic applies to their talents is edging a little too close to cutie mark predetermination and the related nonsense for me... while it's true that some people are just better than others at things, hard work and perseverance can do wonders, especially if someone's passionate about something. They may never make legendary status, but no one could call them shabby.

I'm going to say that realistically, a Unicorn can only do magic that relates to their CM, but this in turn is quite open. For example, Rarity can learn practically any gem related spell, regardless of application or use.

@Perpetual Lurker: Now that makes sense. However, I still lean towards JT's interpretation, even though at that point, the difference is fairly small.

Also, I forgot to say, only ponies have cutie marks? *cough*Zecora*cough*

EDIT: I'm talking about your response to me. I don't think talents change after cutie mark acquisition.

edited 20th Nov '12 8:52:33 AM by Sereg

About the "opposite elements of harmony" thing, weren't those stallion foils that were made up by people in this thread supposed to be something like that? Or were they just supposed to be male opposites of the main characters? Because I remember Pinkie's foil being a silent performer character for the element of laughter.

@Rainbow: They were actually meant to be roughly opposite in personality and/or quirks but same in element.

It seems that no matter what Dave Polsky writes he can't escape controversy.(Warning, Grimdark)

edited 20th Nov '12 8:56:09 AM by Mio