^The fact that magic is basically treated as a science means that it's repeatable and relatively well-understood. I think jumping from 'no one know how this works' straight to spellscript is a little ridiculous, though, especially since we've never seen any indication of the like.

I figure that any amount of force one can apply to objects with magic can be understood, quantified, and written into the form of a coding language to boost the efficiency of spells.

I mean, if the forces can't be understood and written as numbers, then we just get into the unsatisfying territory of "magic does magic because it's magic."

Yeah, you got a point there Red. I still think Twi somehow came up with a method to cast a control spell that allows her to handle multiple small spell effects, like the Dam Repair spell and the sequence of effects she uses to calm down the rampaging Ursa Minor.

In a way, I also blame it on my Magic: The Gathering experience, where I am intimately familiar with Oracle card rulings, spell mechanics, and interactions between permanents, spells and abilities (Making and learning how to play a deck is definitely a kind of programming). Cue the inevitable "Neeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd!" quip Twilight would totally come up with a tourney-winning deck after studying all the spells she could access.

Also I just want to make technology work without access to traditional electronics :V Because I know it should be doable if you can make a complex kludge of spells mimic a computer's OS and some apps.

Also as I mentioned last page, Fluttershy totally slips ponies roofies

edited 12th Feb '12 12:35:52 AM by AceOfScarabs

Honestly, I think magic can easily be related to code as it is. They know that doing this goes that, in essence (magic always does exactly what you want etc. etc.), which is basically the same as a coding language. The rest is just applying very simple spells together to form a larger one based on smaller routines. Compiling scripts into code, in essence.

Code really isn't as complicated as all that. It's just taking the stream of data and manipulating it using commands that it recognizes and can interact with. Seems pretty much like magic to me.

edited 12th Feb '12 12:36:36 AM by kegisak

It's a wizard (D&D term) or hacker way of looking at magic by the numbers and mechanics, where a sorcerer (D&D term) would use magic based on instinct, feel and possibly passion.

Yeah, Maths is a kind of magic, although everyone who got their schooling learns it. The more arcane and abstract maths textbooks even vaguely resemble grimoires

edited 12th Feb '12 12:38:29 AM by AceOfScarabs

Being able to understand magic and its rules to the point of a spell language being possible is pretty believable, and I can definitely get behind enchantments being essentially coded. But I'm a programmer, and I most certainly can't execute code in my head, even if I've written it. It just doesn't seem possible for anyone to be able to cast spells through memorized bits of a programming language due to the sheer complexity of the actions being taken from a coding prospective.

If Twilight played MTG, she would totally run a bunch of combo decks.

Yeah it's a shame that common Terran humans don't have innate Arcane casting like Unicorns. Item enchants are different from normal spells, as are prepared or triggered spells, which have to be stored in a form that can reliably replicate itself when triggered, only enchants are persistant effects.

I've seen two types of item enchants, "Brands" or runes (where the enchant has a physical mark on the object), and Auras (Magic: The Gathering style, where the enchant effect is in the form of an energy matrix that imposes its effects on the object).

Branding the enchantment looks to be a lot more permanent, but no doubt the method of etching the brand into an object and shaping the magic on it is different from Aura enchanting, although the effects look similar from the outside, also brands that are done in more permanent ways are nigh-impossible to remove because the physical mark is there so even if you dunk the object in antimagic you can "recharge" the brand by exposure to magic.

Only thing is we hardly see Unicorns make much use of magic items apart from magitech. I reckon the Flim-Flam's cider machine has a branded circuit for its Quality Control switch.

edited 12th Feb '12 12:46:30 AM by AceOfScarabs

Wait, so now we're assuming that unicorns are geniuses just to facilitate being able to execute code in their heads? Isn't that taking things a little too far?

I think it could be possible that they're sort of writing the spells, then executing them to cast. So once they have the basic package set it's always there in their noggin, they just need to run it through. Like... let's say instead of a proper language, they use rune language. They organize the runes to make the 'program', then memorize the much easier to manage runes, and execute them later. Or, alternately, unicorns have a sort of magical section of their brain that they can impermanently wire spells into - sort of like how in discworld when you learn a spell it's bored into you brain until you use it, and it's impossible for you to forget, except without the business of forgetting it once it's cast.

So basically it's not the code itself that you cast the spell thorugh, but an EXE file. Make it once, execute it every other time.

Or read it in a book, "copy it down", and use it.

As they say: Good programmers reuse code. Great programmers steal code.

On the subject of the episode: I wonder if the resultant chaos from first Love Poison didn't lead to Discord's rule? Or maybe I'm going too far in trying to pin down just when he came into power.

edited 12th Feb '12 12:47:34 AM by Enlong

Well, Twilight has certainly been known to lift whole hog.

And we had discussed that for a bit. As with all things we never came to a real conclusion. My personal thoughts are it's too unlikely from what they've given us, but I suppose a good writer could make it believable.

Eh, I just don't like the idea of spell being a sort of "fire and forget" type deal. To me, magic is about actively thinking about what you're trying to do and the forces you are manipulating, unless of course the magic is in an incantation based system (which really is just a watered down programming language in most cases). What most people think of as "spells" is simply a repeated action that the caster is able to do almost reflexively the same way a person is able to ride a bike or throw a ball without really thinking after a lot of practice.

edited 12th Feb '12 12:54:11 AM by PerpetualLurker

It's a biological thing, Unicorns need to learn their magic, which is why we have Magic Kindergarten. Twilight may have had problems with her magic control, as evidenced by when she struggled to turn the page of the book by telekinesis during her entrance exam to Celestia's Academy, and then she had an out-of-control surge of power when she was startled by Dashie's Sonic Rainboom.

For Unicorns they don't really see it as code like we would imagine, but they see it as a shape which they form to make the magic do what they need. The "code" they use for their spells is probably less maths (unless it's a complex or complicated spell) and more a methodology of reliably shaping the magic to do as desired.

For us 21st-century Terran Humans with lots of access to technology that does amazing things, we associate magic with the way we program technology so for us the magic can be expressed in a form of programming language that coincidentally can be read by a properly programmed computer. Or perhaps we play Magic: The Gathering and are familiar with how that cardgame's mechanics work, and apply the rules from there.

I've got a feeling that the "code" used for magic isn't literally the code used in, say, Java or other languages like that. Some other form of representation, perhaps.

After all, we've invented programming languages that read in images for code.

edit: Whoa. Ninja'd by something... that is a better thing for my post to be responding to?

edited 12th Feb '12 12:54:26 AM by Enlong

Discord's magic clearly cannot be defined by whatever rules pony magics follow, which is part of his terror. Only thing is he actually has some sense of coherence that makes him more terrifying than Gigyas, who was reduced into an insane primal force.

Love Poison sounds like a definite cause of the decline that led to the Dark Ages before Classical Equestria was founded by the Three Tribes. A pegasi stumbled upon the potion (since they clearly had easy access to all the ingredients), and the Unicorn Royalty was driven into decline by it, which is why the Earth Ponies distrusted them.

Welp I started another talk about the mechanics of unicorn magic as expressed as programs, too much xkcd for me

edited 12th Feb '12 1:01:37 AM by AceOfScarabs

Man, I'm getting a serious case of feeling like Ginger here. I play Magic too (just look at my avatar ), but I don't build my decks to run like a program. It's more like an infinitely more complex game of chess to me, and you get to pick your pieces.

Learning to use magic just seems to me like it would be quite similar to learning any sort of physical skill, just manipulating forces instead of your muscles.

But eh, to each their own. I bet the ponies all approach magic in different ways too.

edited 12th Feb '12 1:02:32 AM by PerpetualLurker

The Pegasi at that time didn't seem much for royalty. They seemed to be a militocracy.

edit: As for "MTG Programming", I don't really feel that way, though I think it's because I'm not all that great at Magic. However, I do know programming, and I do like explainable magic systems...

edited 12th Feb '12 1:03:29 AM by Enlong

I blame it on my tendency to read all those analytical articles about tourney deckbuilding at places like Starcities, and steeping myself in the mathematical calculations those crazy good pros use to put their decks together. I even built my own variants of my favourite deck archtypes that had my personal touch to them, giving them strange advantages (My Tooth and Nail deck absolutely wrecked multicoloured decks and mauled slower aggro decks and gave Obliterate decks huge problems, while Spellbomb Control was a beast at freezing crazy combo decks and crippling all sorts of random decks with its toolbox of effects).

It's funny isn't it? I'm pretty random and full of good cheer like Pinkie, yet I'm also artsy like Rarity and such a neeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrd like Twilight That "Which pony are you" quiz I took tens of thousands of posts ago was really accurate. vid related

True that. Perhaps they enforced martial law after the unicorn royalty crumbled from the repercussions of Love Poison abuse, and Princess Platinum was thrust into power as the only sane Unicorn Royalty left because at the time of the Love Poison fiasco she was still a filly and never partook of it.

edited 12th Feb '12 1:10:09 AM by AceOfScarabs

Meanwhile, all I did was throw together the cards I already had into what I could possibly consider a decent strategy (that being, lots of Artifact creatures, high cost things, and creatures and spells that let me summon high-cost things for low costs. Like Elvish Piper.)

I had a pretty fun Kamigawa Block deck with loads of snake people, and it abused their mana engine and Time of Need to let me toolbox an army of Legendary creatures that wrecked house. It even had a just for fun mana engine that could filter out red mana so I could summon Kumano and use his ability to burn my way to victory

I, umm... like to use Mimic Vat?

*high-fives*

I survived the year of Jace being in every deck ever by sticking Vampire Hexmages and Necrotic Oozes on Mimic Vat to shut them down.

Well, I've managed to stay up far too long talking about programming and magic, so I'm off to bed. Good night everyone.

edited 12th Feb '12 1:19:50 AM by PerpetualLurker

The Artifact Deck I mentioned likes to throw Maul Splicer (summoned via Elvish Piper or Birthing Pod or something) into the Vat, to get a bunch of Golems every turn.

Mirrorworks is also fun.

Sadly, I'm not fast enough with buying cards, nor do I have enough money to keep up with the current "cycle".

edited 12th Feb '12 1:21:10 AM by Enlong

If ponies played Magic: The Gathering, Rarity would have some kind of heavy control/prison deck with an elegant win mechanism, Dashie would play a burn deck, Pinkie would run something that was difficult to comprehend or stop, AJ would play a fast mana green deck with lots of powerful creatures, Fluttershy would run a creature deck that could swarm you with tons of token creatures, and Twi would have a powerful deck designed to play as smoothly as possible. I wonder what Trixie would run for her deck, probably something that was a natural foil to Twi's.

Night, Lurker.

@Enlong: I haven't bought any new cards since my last purchase of a couple of Time Spiral booster packs. I still have all my seasonal goods from my Onslaught/Mirrodin/Kamigawa season, as well as cards from other eras like my first Mirage card collection. If I were to get back into the game, I'd wait for the next Season, Magic 2012, but I don't have the magic to seriously invest in it.

edited 12th Feb '12 1:24:32 AM by AceOfScarabs