Just because the episodes doesn't spell the moral out at the end doesn't mean that it doesn't still show that lesson. Even if the friendship report itself was about taking your friend's concerns seriously, it's incredibly obvious that Twilight's blowing everything out of proportion. The "don't freak out over minor things" lesson is there, it's just not spelled out because honestly, it's bleedingly obvious.

@Red: I'm not saying that he didn't plan some elements out, just not all of them. As for Gamzee, I actually think that he could easily have added that in late in the story. He probably just realized that "Hey, kid is scared of clowns, I have a clown-like Juggalo troll, I should combine the ideas somehow". I don't know whether it is or not, but I think it could be a very clever retcon. I'm pretty sure he mentioned somewhere that he didn't decide to give the trolls larger roles until the end of act four.

EDIT: Pagetopper. Come on, guys, less than a thousand views and I'll stop posting this.

edited 25th May '12 8:48:17 PM by JapaneseTeeth

@Red: The jokes were there pretty early on, Gamzee was introduced as being very clownlike and generally kinda creepy.. it's an easy connection to make, so it wouldn't surprise me if it just popped into his head and he though, "Yeah, that's funny."

Anyways, I'm getting an early night. Gonna go looking at single places tomorrow, woo... Ah, well. If I don't find anything I like I've got the papers for a shared apartment all filled out, I can just deal with that as it is for a year. It's not hard to be a recluse now that I'll have a room to myself.

FEH! FEH, I say!

edited 25th May '12 8:49:15 PM by kegisak

Ha, I ninja-edited you. Anyway, back to ponies.

edited 25th May '12 8:48:59 PM by JapaneseTeeth

yeah what J teeth beat me to, friendship report =/= only moral. they are JUST what THAT CHARACTER learned from the experience, not everything you could possibly learn from it. that's what is so awesome, well one of the many reasons anyway, they DON'T feel the nee to hit you over the head with every little moral, or make the whole story revovlve around just one thing. Tehre are ALWAYS other little moral's you can take from the episode other then what was in the friendship report.

edited 25th May '12 8:49:55 PM by Seraphem

It's About Time did make Twi's neurotics the point of the lesson again though for any compensation. I get the idea it might end up becoming her 'formula' like for every other character who usually has a recurring personality flaw to start an obstacle.

I get the idea this is why some make a big deal about episodes like MMDW, it ignores that complexity and has one aesop rammed into the head of one character, no matter what else others could have learned from the situation, taking away that shade of grey. FIM is cool because most episodes try to avoid a case of The Complainer Is Always Wrong.

edited 25th May '12 8:52:15 PM by Psi001

I am assuming you mean the Return of Harmony two-parter?

I have two guesses. One, Twilight became disillusioned about friendship because her former best friends turned into mean meanie-pantses. But not Spike. He was still the loyal assistant he always was (using a scroll as a sword-substitute, of all things).

Two, Spike is not just Twilight's #1 assistant and friend, he's also been with Twilight long enough that they're practically family. And if there's a bond stronger than friendship, it's family.

edited 25th May '12 8:50:39 PM by KylerThatch

goodnight kegisak

What are you talking about?

the point of IAT wasn't her neuroticness, it was about what triggered it.

I never said that the lesson didn't exist, but it looked like people were ignoring the main one. I probably misinterpreted things. Also, there's nothing to suggest that she didn't learn from the experience, because even in It's About Time, what caused her to worry wasn't a little thing blown out of proportion.

@Psi: My issues with MMDW is more that it RD didn't really learn the moral at all; the cast basically just held her down and told her what to write. I like it when the characters learn the lesson via experience rather than having other ponies point it out to them.

@Story: I think they mean how the first few books were basically kid-lit and the later books had much more maturity and Nightmare Fuel. The intent was for the book's demographics to shift up as the initial audience matured. i.e. the people who were kids when Philosopher's Stone came out would be older when the later books got published, hence the later books are darker and more mature.

edited 25th May '12 8:54:51 PM by JapaneseTeeth

Yeah but it makes the point of how obsessing over something all the time is likely only to make things worse, and also has another Self Forfilling Prophecy scenario.

yeah she had a rather legitimate reason to be concerned, and the more crazy near psycho!Twi antics were the result of a combo of concussion and sleep deprivation.

But Twilight's crazy antics where shown in season 1.

I admit RD seemed a bit more of an outright Jerkass in that episode because she remained vindictive to the end. It may have worked better if something about the Mare Do Well plan went wrong and RD was forced to help her rival and redeem herself, showing her ability to learn and also maybe adding humility to the others that fans complained about.

Neurotic Twilight was shown early on, but subdued and less a part of the actual Aesops. Most of her episodes still revolved around her Fish out of Water status and worried about clashing with her new friends.

edited 25th May '12 8:56:43 PM by Psi001

Yeah, "She'll banish you and throw you into a dungeon in the place where she banishes you to" comes to mind.

My other issue is that RD's descent into egotism was too abrupt, and that she comes out of it too quickly. Comes back to wishing she had learned the lesson on her own.

edited 25th May '12 8:56:24 PM by JapaneseTeeth

@Psi Well, good thing that was the primary lesson of that episode, then, rather than a tertiary one (behind both not dismissing your friend's problems and not making mountains out of molehills) as in Lesson Zero. Besides, I find it more realistic if a character is able to make the same mistake more than once, anyway. I sure as hell do.

edited 25th May '12 8:57:42 PM by PerpetualLurker

It's About Time never really seemed like it cared all that much about it's lesson and really just wanted to be as funny and over the top as it could be.

And I will stand by my thought that the lesson of Lesson Zero was ultimately to Twilight's detriment despite it's affirmation of their friendship.

As usual, MMDW has flaws because it's too rushed.

Oh well, to ease it, RD does at least avoid some Aesops quick in some episodes (Hurricane Fluttershy she quickly learns to be gentle, while Griffon The Brush Off I admit I'm impressed they avoided the easiest scenario of RD turning on Pinkie for admiting about Gilda and learning the hard way).

Either way people think about her S2 episodes, I kinda prefer the more neurotic Twilight, she seems a more defined character that can hold better as an individual cast member. Even her Straight Man episodes like Mmm Mystery seem to give her more character at times.

edited 25th May '12 9:01:33 PM by Psi001

I think It's About Time was largely a filler episode.

I don't think Lesson Zero really damaged Twilight's characterization too much. It just emphasized some previously seen aspects of her personality to an extreme degree.

I agree about Griffon the Brush Off; I'm not a huge fan of Gilda, but I think the episode handled the plotline really well. When I first saw it I was almost positive it was going to be a "don't judge a book by it's cover/don't be jealous of friends' friends" moral. I was really surprised to see that Pinkie's initial assessment was right.

edited 25th May '12 9:01:29 PM by JapaneseTeeth

Damn it, I'm going in to "DEFEND EVERYTHING!" mode again. Is it a bad thing that I'm able to come up with reasonable justifications (in my mind) for almost everything that most people don't like about things I like?

yeah most of MMDW can be chalked up to a new writer not really knowing how the write the show properly, he did get better in his later scripts, but still tends to ignore overall consistency when it clashes with what he want's to happen.

And he should NEVER be allowed even in the same building where RD is being written.

Though i wlil admit he's really good at writing non-hyper-active looney toon Pinkie.

@Perpetual: No, I'm like that too. My mind tends to fill in the blanks in stories really easily, so I always find those sorts of justifications for stuff.

How is Williams writing RD in later episodes? I know she was a jerk in Hearths Warming Eve but since she was playing a role in a play it was kinda harmless. It had some AJ vs RD interaction too, which I adore.

Lurker/Japanese Teeth: You're not alone. I can actually get very pretentious with it as well.

edited 25th May '12 9:04:00 PM by Psi001