Playing support as a Wizard is actually a good idea, because it means that you can contribute your full power without overshadowing your teammates.

Also note that while Pathfinder nerfed some of the most powerful 3.5 stuff, it doesn't actually do anything to address the Tier issue. High level Wizards still teleport around and make reality their bitch while high level Fighters still just get to hit things harder. But at least they get actual class features now.

@D&D Talk

Do people even play that game for fun anymore? I straight up said avoiding munchkins is a priority for a good group, but from the way you guys are talking, that's the only way to play. A player focused on having fun will play their wizard in character to have fun, not min-max themselves into god mode.

@Music

They've said that there will be new themes for the new characters, since it wouldn't be right to use the same old ones.

I tried listening to the character themes again. I guess you're right.

I'm firmly entrenched in the roleplay camp. I've occasionally given my characters debilitating flaws just because it fits their backstory/personality.

edited 19th Mar '13 6:43:17 PM by KylerThatch

Well the thing is that optimization is a spectrum. There is a middle ground between Pun Pun and a 3 int Vow of Poverty Artificer you know.

In fact, you pretty much need some understanding of optimization no matter how much you focus on storytelling over gaming. A Fighter who takes Power Attack instead of Skill Focus (Speak Language) is optimizing, it's just a question of degree. And you need understanding of the game mechanics or you'll be disapointed. You can optimize to fit a concept, rather than straight power, but you need to understand how things work first. Someone who wants to play an unarmed martial arts master is going to be sorely disapointed if they take the Monk class. Telling them to take Unarmed Swordsage instead makes everyone happier.

That's all well and good, Story, but from the way your last couple of posts have been going, it's like you're saying that picking any non-spellcaster class is already a gimped build.

How would a Vow of Poverty artificer even work? Does he just create a bunch of worthless inventions out of the ether or something?

edited 19th Mar '13 6:47:43 PM by IrishZombie

@Lurker: Not necessarily. I mean, I basically make characters for fun, but I do realize when it comes down to gameplay I don't want them to be completely crippled. If I was munchkinning I'd have been like, an Elven Wizard instead of a Dwarf, and I'd have probably taken some better starting feats. Instead I picked feats that fit the character's mentality of 'Be prepared for anything'(He's basically a runt from the slums, and got chased inside the chruch of a god who was famous for being insanely clever and well prepared, which inspired him to try and be as well-prepared as possible. He's also unpleasant, sour, and outright racist to Orcs(Our fighter is a half-orc. If this ever gets off the ground it's gonna be fuuuuuun)

Basically my approach is that I want my characters to be serviceable, but I won't ever take something purely for its benefit, especially not if it counteracts my fun. Other character ideas have included a half-orc paladin raised in a nunnery, a necromancer with a high Charisma stat who plays like a socially awkward twit and gets explained as being Adorkable, and a Gnome Ranger who likes to cut off people's knees. And announce loudly that he intends to do it before hand.

Well it's important to understand the balance of the game. Trying to ignore the tiers won't make them go away, and it will just lead to tears later.

Now I have a personal preference for Wizards, but that doesn't mean that you have to play that way. In fact, the consensus on Gi TP is that Tier 3 is the sweetspot between game breaking and useless. But it doesn't really matter what tier you use, so long as everyone is at roughly the same power level. The real problems come when you have a Wizard and a Fighter (or worse, a Monk) in the same party. But if everyone plays Wizards or everyone plays Fighters, there isn't a problem. (Well you'll have to adjust the encounters obviously, but you need to do that anyway).

That. Right there. That is what I'm talking about.

All of the is fine, really. I was talking about Sereg's example of looking into the future to lock the DM into a course of action that the wizard could then set up an unbeatable counter for. No one wants to play a campaign like that.

And really, there's only a certain sweet-spot that spellcasters are too powerful. In early levels their limitations make things dificult, and at the higher levels everyone has equal opportunity to be broken. All it takes is the understanding to not ruin the game for everyone else and some proper DM-ing to make a diverse party work at the middle levels.

edited 19th Mar '13 7:03:23 PM by PerpetualLurker

A wizard still has a lot of weak points that a fighter wouldn't share. When all your build is dumped into spells and int, he can be easily disrupted when compared to a fighter. A wizard needs 8 hours of good bed rest, time to prepare AND cast his spells. He's usueless at close range, and disrupting his concentration, which can be done with something as simple as a thrown rock, increase the chance for his spell to fail and even backfire.

Basically, a Wizard is a risk/reward class. They're Walking nukes, but they need their spells to work in order to be a real threat. A fighter is generally good to go no matter what. Hell, even if you take away their sword a high-level fighter can still punch you to death. Take a feat to improvise weapons and suddenly it's impossible to disarm them.

edited 19th Mar '13 7:04:16 PM by kegisak

In my first playgroup, I played a wizard in a party with a fighter, barbarian, ranger and cleric, and I didn't really outshine anyone. Then again, that was when I thought evocation was something worth specializing in.

I'm watching that show dance moms. Those people should be fucking ashamed of themselves...unless its all scripted bollocks...then they should be doubly fucking ashamed.

That doesn't mean everyone has to play a Wizard. You can create a balanced party at any tier.

I made a quick check to the trope page of that, and the fact the intro's just two lines tells me everything I need to know.

So, back to the Fighting is Magic stuff, here's a cool theory for what that third character might be.◊

This is what happens when nothing good is on.

Yecch. I only need to read the trope page to realize how abhorrent that show must be...

Actually, it kinda reminds me of Little Miss Sunshine. Where they made a point of how reprehensible the pageant was.

No they don't.

At levels 1-2, Wizards, Archivists, etc are pretty fragile. But at level 1, any class can die to a critical hit, even the high CON Barbarian. Low level combat is very swingy and luck based. And a Druid is more durable than a Fighter even at level 1. A Wizard can be more durable too if optimized for low levels.

At level 3-5, things are fairly equal. By 6, the spellcasters are starting to pull ahead unless the meleers are optimized. By 11, they are far ahead and the mundanes will never catch up, no matter how optimized. And at level 17, spellcasters become God, almost literally.

I've stopped watching dribble like that a long time ago. It's all fake drama the shallow eat up like candy. On average, three quarters of the cast on every show I watch are in need of ten pounds of humble pie.

I'm of the opinion that most "reality" shows are heavily scripted.

I should think up of some more tags for my work. Try and spread it out more. But what to put down.

Also, I switched the channel. My brain hurts too much to continue.

edited 19th Mar '13 7:21:10 PM by ApplelightLimited

Well then... fuck.

The way I'd heard it all kinda makes it seem like Wizards need to keep their distance even at high levels due to being kinda insanely fragile, wheras Fighters at high levels can just wade into monsters and start swinging.

They would, if not for the defensive spells they already cast. Of course, I still say that this whole thing is like saying Batman can beat anyone with prep time. Just don't give them prep time.

I believe that is the way it's supposed to work, but that never works out because of the sheer versatility of magic in general in varies D&D incarnations.

edited 19th Mar '13 7:26:28 PM by Mio